How not to think like a cop, with Naomi Murakawa Time To Say Goodbye

Hello from Jay’s backyard Easter egg hunt!
It’s just Andy and Tammy this week, with special guest Naomi Murakawa, a professor of African American Studies at Princeton and the author of The First Civil Right: How Liberals Built Prison America.
Naomi talks with us about her J-A roots in Oakland, how her dad’s career in the criminal-legal system got her thinking about carceral politics, why police reform has long been a trap, and the history of hate crimes legislation in the US. She shares her observations on Black Lives Matter, the emergence of abolitionist thinking, and the discourse around “anti-Asian violence.”
What can crime statistics tell us about the world? How do we stop ourselves from thinking like cops? Which groups are pushing Asian America in a more punitive direction? And how should “Asian American history 101” inform our analyses of recent violence?
“The we-ness is something we make through struggle.”
Naomi shouts out:
– Mariame Kaba’s new book, We Do This ’Til We Free Us (foreword by Naomi; and check out the rest of the abolitionist series Naomi curates for Haymarket)
– Victoria Law’s new book, “Prisons Make Us Safer” and 20 Other Myths about Mass Incarceration
– Christina B. Hanhardt’s Safe Space: Gay Neighborhood History and the Politics of Violence
– Chandan Reddy’s Freedom With Violence: Race, Sexuality, and the US State
– Stuart Hall’s Policing the Crisis: Mugging, the State, and Law and Order
– The work of Dylan Rodriguez and Ruth Wilson Gilmore
– The abolitionist organizing of Incite!, AAAJ-Atlanta, and Red Canary Song and allies
Thanks for listening, supporting, and spreading the word. Stay in touch via email (timetosaygoodbyepod@gmail.com), Twitter, and/or Patreon—and see you in our Discord!


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